6 वी बैठक 13-1-1931

the Indian Police Service” ?

Dr. Ambedkar: Yes.

Chairman: Does that apply to Mr. Zafrullah Khan ?

Mr. Zafrullah Khan: Yes.

Chairman: And to Sardar Sampuran Singh ?

Sardar Sampuran Singh: That is right.

Chairman: I am only purporting to record your views there, so I will put in the words “and for the Indian Police Service”.

Sixth Sitting—13th January 1931

*Dr. Ambedkar: I should like to have a new paragraph inserted after subparagraph (4) to this effect : “The Sub-Committee desires that a generous policy be adopted in the matter of the employment of the depressed classes in the Public Service, and it particularly recommends that the recruitment of the Police and Military, from which they are now excluded, should be thrown open to them.”.

Mr. Chintamani: Are they excluded by rule, or merely as a matter of practice ?

Dr. Ambedkar: By rule. The Police Service Commission expressly lays it down that the depressed classes are ineligible.

Mr. Chintamani: If there are rules excluding the depressed classes from employment in particular Departments, such as the Police or Military, they are not rules which hold good over the whole country. There may be such rules in some Provinces, but not in all.

Dr. Ambedkar: If it is desired I would have my proposal end as follows: “and in particular recommends that they (the depressed classes) should not be excluded from any Department of the Public Service hereafter by reason of their untouchability”.

Raja Narendra Nath: Surely clause (5)( a) covers that. Sir Cowasji Jehangir: The position is that this community has been excluded on account of the impracticability of employing them. It is no good going into details here and now. If we had a separate section of the Police for the depressed classes, there would still remain the difficulty of members of such classes doing the work of policemen amongst a population which resented it. How this great disadvantage is to be removed is not clear. I cannot express any opinion. What has been done has been done with the greatest reluctance, as I think Dr. Ambedkar will admit. But I see no objection in expressing what Dr. Ambedkar wishes us to do even though it be merely pious. I am afraid that we have expressed the same opinion on hundreds of occasions, and nothing has come out of it. Dr. Ambedkar knows very well what orders have been passed, and how they have proved to be impracticable. Nevertheless, I support the inclusion of such a para-

*Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 231-33.

graph as he proposes. We take the risk and know it may not be a practical proposition, but as you have said on a previous occasion, we cannot always be logical when we are aiming at an ideal.

Dr. Ambedkar: I am particularly anxious that the Police and the Military should be mentioned, because those are the Departments for which the members of the depressed classes would be most fit.

Chairman: The point is covered by paragraph (5) ( a) and (b). Dr. Ambedkar: In that way the question of the Anglo-Indian community is also included. I propose a new clause to follow clause (4). “The Sub-Committee desires that a generous policy be adopted in the matter of the employment of the depressed classes: in the Public Services, and in particular recommends that the recruitment to the Police and Military Departments, from which they are now excluded, should be thrown open to them.” Raja Narendra Nath : I have a suggestion to make, namely, that we should add : “No person shall be under disability or shall be prejudiced in any way for admission to any Service of the country merely by religion, caste or sex.” I would have that as a special recommendation.

Dr. Ambedkar: That will come later.

Mr. Basu: I sympathise with Dr. Ambedkar’s desire to see the disabilities under which his community suffers removed, and if there is in any Province any disability laid down by administrative rules, those rules should be done away with. But the way in which he has put this statement makes it much too general. For instance, in my Province, a great many posts are filled by members of the depressed classes. This is not a matter which greatly concerns my Province.

Dr. Ambedkar: I am prepared to insert some limiting words such as, “where they are at present excluded”

Raja Narendra Nath: There is no rule debarring their employment in the Police, but in practice they are not employed. Once a question was raised by a Member of the Council asking the Government why these people were not recruited for the Police and whether the practice was not in contravention of Section 96 of the present Government of India Act; the reply was not satisfactory. I think the addition of the words which I have suggested will help, and that also the expression of a general desire and general recommendation will also help. But let me tell you that the expression of a general sentiment would not be so effective as the insertion of the words which I have suggested.

Major Stanley: A specific reference to the Military Service is surely outside the scope of this Committee.

Mr. Mody: We have recommended that the requirements of the Army should be borne in mind.

Chairman: I suggest you would make it slightly less controversial if you said this, “And in particular recommend that the recruitment to all Services should be thrown open to them.”

Mr. Mody: Yes, from which they are now excluded.

Chairman: I should not say that because that will raise a point of controversy. All you want to say is that recruitment to all Services should be thrown open to them.

Lieut.-Colonel Gidney : That there shall be no disqualification for such employment.

Chairman: May I point this out ? If we are to make this Report read intelligibly it is a little awkward if we have two consecutive paragraphs which seem to me to cover exactly the same ground, and therefore I would suggest to Dr. Ambedkar that if we have these words it is better that they should come after clause 5. We should make our general recommendations in clause 5, and then I suggest we should attach a paragraph at the end of clause 5 saying something of this sort : “In making this recommendation,”— that is to say the recommendation in clause 5 — “the Sub-Committee have particularly in mind the case of the depressed classes. They desire”, and so on. Dr. Ambedkar: Very well.

Chairman: We will discuss clause 5 first if you do not mind and see whether we ought to add some clause to that effect. Has anyone any observations to make on clause 5 as it is drafted ?

Raja Narendra Nath: That is what I said. I suggested after “disability” you should add “or shall be prejudiced in any way”.

Chairman: I will put that later. We will take it subject to that point; we will come to that later.

Dr. Ambedkar suggests, having passed clause 5, that we should add these words, “In making this recommendation the Sub-Committee have particularly in mind the case of the depressed classes ; they desire that a generous policy be adopted in the matter of the employment of the depressed classes in Public Services, and in particular recommend that the recruitment to all Services, including the Police, should be thrown open to them.” That is the amendment proposed by Dr. Ambedkar to be added on to the end of clause 5. Those in favour of that please signify; those of the contrary opinion; it is carried.