(Defence). 7 In Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services)— 2nd sitting 7-1-1931

IN SUB-COMMITTEE No. VIII (SERVICES)

Second Sitting—7th January 1931

*Dr. Ambedkar: There is one thing which it seems to me necessary that this Sub-Committee should consider, whether this process of Indianisation should not be accompanied by some distinction in the matter of pay, pensions and other privileges of Indians as against Europeans in the Civil Service of the future. I think that is a point which this Sub-Committee must necessarily consider. I should therefore like to add to this paragraph “Should the Indian element be on a par with the European element in the matter of pay, pensions and other privileges”.

Chairman: We will bear that in mind.

Then “(4) Who should be the recruiting authority for the recruitment of All-India Services under the new Constitution ?”

Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: You will have to add there the question of control, who shall recruit and who shall control.

Chairman: We will leave that for the moment.

Then “(5) Recommendations concerning the Civil Branch of the Indian Medical Service”. That is quite at large. We can make what recommendations we like there.

Then “(6) The desirability of recommending that the question as to what conditions may be required to attract and retain future recruits of the right type should be referred to a technical Committee or Committees”. It occurred to me that there are so many of these points, for instance, with regard to rates of pay, which we have to consider. You do not want to pay more than you need; on the other hand it is bad economy to pay people inadequate salaries when you do not get the right type of man. That is obvious The point made as to the question of control seems to me to involve highly technical matters, calling for expert knowledge, so that I doubt whether this Sub-Committee is qualified to express any final opinion — I know I am not. I therefore purposely drafted item (6) of the agenda so that we might

*Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), Government of India, Central Publication Branch, Calcutta, 1931, pp. 44-46.

(Terms of reference to this Committee were : “the relation of services to the new political structure”, which meant to include the ratio of British recruitment in the All-India Services.)

consider whether we ought not to say that there should be Commissions set up to determine this question. Can any of you say — I cannot — what rate of pay is necessary to attract the right type of people ? Is anybody prepared to say that he knows ? Or can anybody formulate what precise regulations should be made regarding control, if we are to cope with that topic ? Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: I think the broad principle with regard to control should be dealt with here, namely, whether it should rest with the Secretary of State as at present or devolve upon the Government of India. Dr. Ambedkar: The distinction of remuneration as between Europeans and Indians is a broad question which this Sub-Committee ought to decide. The particular principle whether the two elements in the Service should be treated on a par is certainly one for this Sub-Committee. Sir Provash Chunder Mitter: If you want to have an All-India Service it is necessary to remember that conditions in the provinces are not the same. Unless you take evidence I cannot see how even broad generalisations can be made on the question of attracting the best men for the Services throughout India.

Sir A. P. Patro: We had a Committee to investigate whether there should be any retrenchment in the Services. It was a very independent Committee, but the result at which it arrived was that the rates of salaries should actually be increased in some respects. I think that this question should be considered by an independent Committee. Some of us, while strongly in favour of Indianisation, feel that in the interests of our own country there should be greater economy in the matter of the salaries of the Indian officers, but at the same time there should be sufficient attraction to such officers, enabling them to maintain their position and prestige in the country, and preserving them from temptation. As to what scale is adequate to keep the best men in the Service, this is not a matter which can be determined offhand, it is one which will require very careful consideration. These are vital questions affecting the efficiency of the Service. My respectful submission is that we should not burden ourselves with details at present Sir Chimanlal Setalvad: With regard to control, I am afraid my remark was not quite understood. I only want to have the large principle settled, whether the control should be in Whitehall or in India. Dr. Ambedkar: I should like to draw your attention to the report of the Ceylon Commission, which recommended the broad principle that there should be differentiation of salaries between the native of Ceylon and others. Chairman: It may meet the point if we had at the end of Item (6) of the agenda, “and if so, whether any definite recommendation should be made for the guidance of such Committees”.

Lord Zetland: The question which Sir Chimanlal Setalvad wishes to discuss will come up on Item (4). The control goes with the recruiting authority. Chairman: We can add to Item (4) “and what general recommendations should be made as to control”. I agree with Lord Zetland that the one is

a corollary of the other. The control goes with the recruiting authority. Will you, therefore, add to Item (6), in order to meet Dr. Ambedkar’s point, “and is so, whether any definite recommendations should be made for the guidance of such Committees” ?

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†Chairman: We come now to Item (3) : “Should recruitment on an All-India basis continue for any of the following Services : ( a) Indian Civil Service, (b) Indian Police Service, ( c) Indian Forest Service, ( d) Irrigation Branch of the Indian Service of Engineers.” I pause here, and suggest that I rather gather the sense of the Committee to be “Yes” to ( a), “Yes” to (b). and “No” to (c). May I take it that the answer is “Yes” to ( a) and (b) ? Mr. Shiva Rao: I think that all these Services should be provincialised. I do not think it would be satisfactory to work these Services on an AllIndia basis, and at the same time ensure a proper relationship between the Services and the Ministry.

Mr. Basu: The Indian Civil Service is a general service that is recruited, and there are bifurcations and trifurcations. After a period in the general service, some members, for example, go to Customs, some take the Judicial line and become Judges, and others remain in the Executive and Revenue Departments. Are we going to have a service which is not a specialised service, such as we ought to have from the very start ? It may be, as I pointed out in my general remarks, that with the new Constitution it will be necessary to recast the categories of services, instead of having one service, namely, the I.C.S. The I.C.S. has done good work in the past, but it is to some extent an anachronism, and may be more so within a short time. The question is whether by this kind of nomenclature we shall be tending to continue and perpetuate a state of things which does not fit in with the requirements of the present day.

Dr. Ambedkar: This question has to be considered from more than one point of view. There is, first of all, the point of view of Provincial autonomy. We are framing a Constitution in which we propose to give as large a degree of Provincial autonomy to the provinces as possible, and it seems to me that no province can be deemed to have Provincial autonomy if it has not the right to regulate the Civil Service that is going to work in its area. There is another and very important point of view, namely, finance. When we have an All-India Civil Service we have a fixed scale of pay. Salaries, remunerations, and other privileges are on a scale which is somewhat remote from what would be obtainable in the various provinces. A Civil Service that will not be costly to Bombay or Bengal may be costly to smaller and poorer provinces, like Assam, Sind, the North-West Frontier Province, and Punjab, and it may be that these provinces will feel themselves satisfied with a little less efficient service than the All-India basis would give them. Having regard to finance at their command, they may regard the brains and efficiency obtainable as quite sufficient for their purpose. Finally, I agree with Mr. Basu

†Proceedings of Sub-Committee No. VIII (Services), pp. 54-58.